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Clearing the Air

Started by MaydaX, Oct 16 2011 10:44 AM

37 replies to this topic

#21 Everson

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Posted Oct 19, 2011 - 07:55 AM

View PostSixshot, on Oct 19, 2011 - 07:24 AM, said:

Here's the thing that really raises my question. GGC states that they were not given enough lead time in order to respond. So I wonder how much of a lead time did Maydax gave to the folks at GGC on the matter.
Email 1: Sept 2nd, 2011;
Email 2: Oct 16th 2011.

After the second email was sent we implemented a message which would display based on a referral from ggc-stream.com

http://www.pbbans.com/err_msgs/ggc.shtml

Quote

Traffic originating from GGC-Stream.com is now redirected to this message.

PBBans blocked the GGC website from accessing our banlists and has repeatedly requested they cease importing our MBi. We have done so for more than one reason but the biggest reason is they are encouraging admins they do not need to stream to PBBans which even led to some server admins dropping PBBans entirely. Their reason for that suggestion is because they import and enforce our bans anyway.

We import and enforce bans as well but we do not suggest anyone drop streaming to another site. It was never our intention to replace any 3rd party anti-cheat website with the EBL in order to gain streaming exclusivity. In fact we often promote server admins to multi-stream to others to make a better anti-cheat community.

There have been other incidents that we ignored over the many months because we didn't want to start an AC war. Only people who win in those are the cheaters. Since streaming servers is what makes PBBans so effective, we will not allow anyone to import our ban lists and have them encourage users to cease streaming or not sign up with PBBans because the server admin can use an enforce bans option. Without streaming servers, fewer cheaters get caught and that is against our goal. I'm sure server admins know what it's like to have a player come in your server and spam their server info or clan website in a hope to attract players away from your server. It's disrespectful to say the least.

We didn't want to resort to this but in the end we have to protect ourselves and our goals. Server admins can stream to PBBans, AON, GGC and others simultaneously therefore we feel this decision is best for us but doesn't affect the anti-cheat community.
GGC then implemented anonymous linking which we interpreted as an attempt to circumvent the display of the message; thus resulting in our position now.

#22 Nik21

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Posted Oct 19, 2011 - 08:18 AM

GGC statement: http://www.ggc-stream.com/news/124/PBBans+cancels+Partnership+with+GGC

My opinion:
After reading both statements, I see that as an egoistic step from PBBans. I´m just a normal User with intrests in Anti-cheat. But as i saw this, i was really shocked. I mean, both AC networks have their advantage (if i was a streaming admin, I´d prefer the site with the bigger banlist, depends on the game, or multi stream), but the external banlists were really great, i think.. multi streamed servers are kinda laggy.
I mean, pbbans got the bans from ggc, and ggc the bans from pbbans. Whats the problem? As far as i see, ggc trys to get the best anti cheat networks together, but pbbans trys to make a conquest; getting their site the most popular, quantity over quality.

This is not the right way ... we aren´t here to fight each other, we are here to fight against cheaters.Together.

Edited by Nik21, Oct 19, 2011 - 08:19 AM.

#23 MaydaX

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Posted Oct 19, 2011 - 08:49 AM

View PostNik21, on Oct 19, 2011 - 08:18 AM, said:

After reading both statements, I see that as an egoistic step from PBBans.

I don't see why some people are upset when PsB and Game-Violations are essentially doing the same thing by requiring admins stream to use their complete banlists.

View PostNik21, on Oct 19, 2011 - 08:18 AM, said:

multi streamed servers are kinda laggy.

Multi-streaming has existed for years now and I honestly don't hear much about it causing lag. RCON tools for BC2 that spam pb_sv_plist would cause more lag than multi-streaming. The amount of data sent is very small.

View PostNik21, on Oct 19, 2011 - 08:18 AM, said:

As far as i see, ggc trys to get the best anti cheat networks together, but pbbans trys to make a conquest; getting their site the most popular, quantity over quality.

We started that trend years ago with the EBL and PsB. But honestly it's didn't work out the way we hoped in the end. But we respect each parties decision in each case.

#24 Aura6S

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Posted Oct 19, 2011 - 12:34 PM

Maydax

Quote

the biggest reason is they are encouraging admins they do not need to stream to PBBans

KEIOS

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We do encourage our admins to dual- even multistream to other Anticheat Communitys

I have no reason to disbelieve either so the only other explanation is indeed crossed wires/language barrier, yes?

So who's going to man up here? Situations like this just further distance game devs from using PB, instead running straight into the outstreched arms of VAC.

#25 buttscratcher

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Posted Oct 19, 2011 - 01:08 PM

View PostAura6S, on Oct 19, 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

So who's going to man up here?
Based on past experience, its probably going to take Surfy and Vanessa to be the ones that "man up".


butt

#26 MaydaX

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Posted Oct 19, 2011 - 04:31 PM

View PostAura6S, on Oct 19, 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

Situations like this just further distance game devs from using PB, instead running straight into the outstreched arms of VAC.

Actually many developers don't even consider anything outside PB itself. They contract PB and trust it's all they need. Devs are not going to VAC because of what happens in the 3rd party AC community. It's more because PB is becoming increasingly problematic (from the customer support side) and outdated over the years. It's fine if you have experience with PB but new users tend to have more issues and contact customer support.

View PostPiggy, on Oct 18, 2011 - 01:27 AM, said:

Another Victory for the Hackers.

Can't we behave ourselves and all focus on the real goal here.

I don't see it being a victory. If we thought this would hurt the AC community we would not have done it. The partnership was mainly both sites exchanging banlists. When GV removed their banlist for download and we removed them from the EBL, I didn't read many complaints about it from anyone here. No matter what people think of GV they are banning cheaters like the rest of us. But when we make a simular move we are suddenly the bad guy.

If we didn't want to fight hackers we wouldn't be here honestly. As I said before, if admins stream to PBBans, GGC and others simultaneously and it's the same protection. In fact it's better as you get live ban updates instead of a once per day update.

#27 UpGive

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Posted Oct 19, 2011 - 11:33 PM

Yes there are 2 sides to every coin but also understand that you dont really need the EBL. I streamm to both PBbans and GGC and will continue to stream to both, since I want all the protection against hackers that I can get. And I also want to say thanks to PBbans for posting their side of what happened in their forums. GGC also posted their side of what happened on their forums but my respect for them drop a little when they took it to the P4F forums.

#28 BladeRepper

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Posted Oct 20, 2011 - 01:50 AM

I believe this is a hit to all streaming servers that can't stream from PBBans because of restrictions. (I am honoring the rules)

I choose GGC-Stream because it included PBBans in the streaming.
I couldn't get past the requirements for streaming on PBBans. (Website roster for Clan) That works if you have a clan.
I am just a lowly single server admin with a few friends/coworkers with limited management rights.
This is where GGC-Stream shines for me.
I liked having the well known and good PBBans backed stream but also a second good source from GGC.
It didn't matter where it came from as long as i got the stream.

I think basically there is a communication issue between the two parties.
Maybe a more direct email address with the two parties would have worked better than Webmaster email address. God knows I never check that inbox.
I can only hope this is resolved soon and a trust is reestablished between the parties quickly. As I miss my PBBans Stream.

#29 [GV]FruitY

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Posted Oct 20, 2011 - 05:34 AM

I don't really see where the victory goes to the hackers in this case.
Of course there are always two sides of a story but at the end only the result counts. And in this special case the winners are the players, server admins and of course the AC itself.
Because every AC have its own ban system and ban period for different violations there are always problems in keeping the shared bans synchronized. So many players got unbanned by one AC but still being banned on the other AC because the ban list isn't sync'd. Same goes for Bug-Ban-removals.
Also banned players now know exactly where to go to when getting kicked, since every AC have its own kick message (including the AC url).
Server admins that choose to stream to all ACs will have all bans and takes only 1-5 minutes (depends on the register steps of each AC). Since the most ACs using the live ban system there is no need to upload any ban list. Means less work for the admin at the end.
If a AC decide not to share its bans, then this is their right and also gives them the full control over their bans, without the need to inform other ACs about bulk ban-removals. Also they keep their own justification.
What would be the need of streaming to different ACs if you get all bans from a single AC. You wouldn't even think about to stream to any other AC.

In short, I understand the decision of PBBANS and respect it.

#30 MaydaX

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Posted Oct 20, 2011 - 06:50 AM

View PostBladeRepper, on Oct 20, 2011 - 01:50 AM, said:

I can only hope this is resolved soon and a trust is reestablished between the parties quickly. As I miss my PBBans Stream.
The chances of that happening are dropping with GGC posting their message on sites outside of GGC (ex BFP4F). It's one thing to post such a message on our own sites but posting on official game forums doesn't show me they want to work it out but instead it makes PBBans look bad. That's why we never posted it on any forums outside of our own.

And for the record I did ban the GGC hostname from IRC but it was not because of what they did. It was a really bad day for me in real life and I just wanted all the crap to end. I never kicked anyone currently in the channel. I knew it was wrong the next day and I promptly removed the IRC ban.

Quote

Oct 16 11:01:34 * MaydaX sets ban on *!*@staff.ggc-stream.com
Oct 17 14:50:39 * MaydaX removes ban on *!*@staff.ggc-stream.com
I'm not afraid to admit that I was wrong for doing that. We are only human after all.

#31 HappyHarry

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Posted Oct 21, 2011 - 01:10 AM

View PostMaydaX, on Oct 20, 2011 - 06:50 AM, said:

The chances of that happening are dropping with GGC posting their message on sites outside of GGC (ex BFP4F). It's one thing to post such a message on our own sites but posting on official game forums doesn't show me they want to work it out but instead it makes PBBans look bad. That's why we never posted it on any forums outside of our own.

One of our admins posted this news like every other news from our site. This has no special reason nor the intention to make PBBans looking bad.

Sadly it is a loss of security for the admins, who are restricted to only one streaming provider. Even if you multi-stream (with all possible advantages), there's always a risk, that an AC maintains there servers or gets attacked and so on....

#32 [GV]FruitY

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Posted Oct 21, 2011 - 01:53 AM

View PostHappyHarry, on Oct 21, 2011 - 01:10 AM, said:

Sadly it is a loss of security for the admins, who are restricted to only one streaming provider. Even if you multi-stream (with all possible advantages), there's always a risk, that an AC maintains there servers or gets attacked and so on....

I somehow have to disagree on that. There is no security loss at all for server admins. The opposite it is. Now server admins can easily follow which stream caused the kick, added which checks and so on. Transparency will be the result.
So far I haven't seen a single server admin who is restricted to just one stream provider.
About the last sentence... I am sure that server admins fully understand that every AC have to maintain their servers from time to time. Also they already know that every AC get DDos'd sometimes. Don't think too bad about AC users, they will understand.
Also it is the AC responsibility to do the maintenance at a wisely picked time.

At all I don't think there is a need to "disagree" with the decision PBBANS made. Every ongoing "argument" will just lead in a fight who looks better. Which should never happen on a public forum anyway.

#33 HappyHarry

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Posted Oct 21, 2011 - 02:30 AM

View Post[GV]FruitY, on Oct 21, 2011 - 01:53 AM, said:

So far I haven't seen a single server admin who is restricted to just one stream provider.

For example one of the biggest german providers (which you know too) is restricted to one AC since BF:BC2, so please stick to the truth.

View Post[GV]FruitY, on Oct 21, 2011 - 01:53 AM, said:

Every ongoing "argument" will just lead in a fight who looks better. Which should never happen on a public forum anyway.

I totally agree! It should have kept in private from the beginning.

#34 Everson

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Posted Oct 21, 2011 - 02:48 AM

View PostHappyHarry, on Oct 21, 2011 - 02:30 AM, said:

I totally agree! It should have kept in private from the beginning.
As http://www.pbbans.com/forums/clearing-the-air-t147568.html/page__view__findpost__p__382362

#35 BGArmySHH70

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Posted Oct 23, 2011 - 03:55 AM

As a streaming admin I can't take a position "a victory for hackers". I have experience with simultaneous streaming to pbbans and GGC. I can't say that simultaneous streaming causes lag. The reason to cancel my streaming to GGC was motivated with the cooperation between pbbans and GGC. In this situation, simultaneous streaming was unnecessary.Certainly no one here encouraged me to do this. This should be a free choice of every admin. But if information that GGC really are encouraged server administrators to stop streaming to pbbans is truth - this is not correct partnerships! In my country/not Mongolia/we say: „The neck of the wolf is big because he brings his own lamb alone!" I guess in your language this can be a little strange, but I have no doubt that you will understand the meaning. :)


Edited by BGArmySHH70, Oct 23, 2011 - 04:18 AM.

#36 Maester

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Posted Oct 23, 2011 - 11:55 PM

Coming from someone who never used GGC I cant say much against them. However regardless of whether they post news from there sites they should have never posted this issue on a global forum like BFP4F or on Facebook & Twitter. Seems they are trying to harm the AC community more then help.

Quote

In addition to that the email was sent via the real name of Maydax, which was unknown by the project management


So again they are saying they didnt even know who Maydax was?

Quote

After the access via the public port was not possible anymore, we had to guess, that blocking this access was a safety measure against DDoS attacks. Therefore we used an alternative path to align the banlists as we could not assume that there was the intention to block specifically our access

So again after the message of you being blocked you decided to follow through with other methods to get this list? Why didnt you come ask instead of assuming.

Now with that said. This just gives people the ability to stream to both PBBans & GGC. Like Maydax has stated PBBans has been one of the few to even allow download to public banlists. If people can live without it from PsB and GV then why cant people just do the same here. The only good thing I saw was the ability to see if they were banned on another AC other then that without it being synced constantly we cant be sure that the banlists from other AC sites are reliable. So I see no issues with this its not hurting the community and the hackers arent winning.

On a side note. For those of you who were denied streaming to pbbans and were able to access the banlists etc from another AC I kinda see this as a breech if PBBans was going to allow you access to there info they would have allowed you to stream. Regardless if it is a clan member or yourself who was caught hacking I dont see any reason for you to have access to the info you werent supposed to have in the first place. So I dont see it as a bad thing. Yes I love seeing AC work together for the greater good and if it works out great if not then people still have there options.

Just remember everyone points a finger at the other but it proves who the better man is when they only discuss amongst there community and not the world.

Edited by Maester, Oct 23, 2011 - 11:58 PM.

#37 Urs0

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Posted Oct 27, 2011 - 12:46 PM

So, instead of talking to each other with skype, msn, whatever. Just e-mail sent by the two sides


Thats real effort

Congrats to both

#38 fozzer

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Posted Oct 27, 2011 - 02:09 PM

View PostUrs0, on Oct 27, 2011 - 12:46 PM, said:

So, instead of talking to each other with skype, msn, whatever. Just e-mail sent by the two sides


Thats real effort

Congrats to both
This topic seems to be going around in circles and nothing posted is going to change or improve things.
An admin can stream to 16 anti cheat sites at the same time if those sites use PBUCON as their streaming initiative.
With ACI running UCON trials at the moment that leaves just PsB as the sole repository streaming service.

If an admin wants to use the banlists of PBBans / GV / AON / GGC and eventually ACI then all the server admin has to do is set up streaming to each site.
If an admin also wants to use the PsB banlist, that's no problem either because as the sole anti cheat site remaining that uses the old rep. style method of streaming, you can use them too.

By maintaining their own individual banlists, each anti cheat site is responsible for their own banlist integrity and upkeep.
It also makes it a hell of a lot easier for players who find themselves on a banlist, and wish to appeal the ban,to find the right anti cheat site to make their appeal to.
Not a lot more to say really, so this topic is now closed.
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